Below is something I wrote (just the first part) to Kim, who wrote a post entitled "Do Christians Have the Right to Instruct Each Other in How to Live?":
"Many times, the hard truth is that we don't want to hear anything that might result in our having to give something up that we like, or change in some way that doesn't please our flesh.
You wrote, 'They say it doesn't matter what they wear, how they look, how they live, so long as they love Jesus.'
I have encountered that attitude many times. I always think of Jesus' own words: 'If you love me, you will obey what I command' (John 14:25) and 'If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love' (John 15:10).
Love is inextricably tied to obedience. I simply can't claim to love Jesus if I disobey Him. Love is defined by what God says it is, and He says it's obedience. Who am I to argue?"
______
That is not to say we do not stumble--of course we do, and if you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself, and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8). But what I am addressing here is the prevalent belief that you can do whatever you want, and actions don't convey your love for Jesus one way or the other. It is nearly gnostic, divorcing what you do from what you "believe." And in from a Biblical standpoint, it's absurd.
"But I DO believe in Jesus," protests the drunkard. No, you don't, or you'd be doing what He said to do.
I, too, used to think that "belief" meant some form of mental assent, a recognition that something is true. If I believe in Jesus, I recognize and assent that He is the Son of God and died to save my sins. That is belief, right?
Well, in a sense, but that belief won't do much for you on the Day of Judgment.
What Jesus wants from us is faith in Him and obedience to Him. What does James say about belief?
James 2:19-20
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
It is not enough simply to "know" what Jesus did for you and live as you please; James makes it clear that the demons' sure knowledge of God does nothing to save them from His wrath (that's why they are trembling). No one may live however he pleases (the definition of lawlessness, by the way) and call himself a disciple of Jesus.
Many people are upset by this idea, but they are allowing themselves to be upset by the Gospel itself. Jesus came to set captives free from sin, not just to let them "know" what He did so they can continue in it. Our freedom in Him is freedom to obey, not a license to do whatever we want.
Jesus said I show my love to Him by my obedience. Thus, God's commands are of paramount importance to me and to any of His followers. I love Him, so I seek to obey Him.
People get so hyper about "works" that they don't even want to touch the word with a 10-foot pole--someone might think they believe in a "works"-based salvation! I don't; we are sinners saved only by the grace of God. But James had no such qualms with "works," and neither should we. And did you know that the Bible tells us to actually try to please God? It's not wrong. It's not "striving," except in a good way, as long as you realize that only the sacrifice of Jesus saves you--you couldn't do it yourself. But that doesn't mean there's nothing to do, or that works is a bad word! Check it out:
Eph 5:8-10
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.
2 Cor 5:9
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Gal 1:10
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 6:8b-9
[T]he one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
And look at this about "striving" (below). It's not a bad word. It's okay to seek to please God and to strive to know Him and to walk the narrow road. Be encouraged! Seek to live as God commands!
Luke 13:24
Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Acts 24:15-16
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
The Bible says that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. He empowers us to live holy lives by His Spirit...and He expects us to pursue holiness. We dare not live lawless lives.
1 John 3:4
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Matthew 23:28
You try to look like upright people outwardly, but inside your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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The Surgery, Part One
9 years ago
23 comments:
Preach it, girl!
Mollster
http://threepennies.blogdrive.com
Yeah! What the Mollster said! You are sure building me up spiritually, Kristen. Keep it coming!
Thanks for this post on love and obedience. Like you, I think they go hand in hand. Disobedience is what angered God in the first place (Adam & Eve), to walk in faith is to trust our maker with every fiber of our being. And part of this is recognizing our place in relationship to God's. We are dearly loved...but God is God. Its out of gratitude, adortation,and submission that I follow Jesus, and at one time I had none of those.I think some of those things are esstential to obedience.
TulipGirl, you're right to point out that danger. I think we sometimes get so excited to find kindred spirits that we let our spiritual guard down. Satan will use anything he can to get us off track. Thanks for the heads up, so to speak. I'm loving all of this iron sharpening iron, ladies! Keep it up!
I know what you mean, TulipGirl. I've had that happen to me (receiving as a 'conviction' something that really wasn't). We can certainly fall into a trap of seeking to please men.
God's Word does say, though, that I may seek out what pleases HIM, and that's what I meant to convey. But I agree we must guard and examine our hearts constantly to make sure we're following Him and not other people.
Christie--hi! Thanks for your comment. I like that you pointed out that gratitude, adoration and submission have everything to do with our heartfelt obedience. For some people, obedience makes them think of robots--our God loves us and we love Him. :) Isn't it wonderful that we can obey because of His love, and the love He places in us?? :)
Old Rule-Keeping
Gal 2:21 "I am not going to go back on that. Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily."(msg)
Do you hear the Spirit through Paul? "If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily."
Child of God, live in the Freedom appropriated by the cross! Do not be deceived into thinking that your "right standing" with God, comes through keeping rules.
Be Free! tripp
Tripp, no one is advocating rule-keeping as a means of salvation. Are you willing to excise Scriptures that talk about obeying Christ and keeping His commands to fit your definition of freedom? What is freedom?
Like it or not, the New Testament, our awesome New Covenant in Christ, does come with commands. Some of Jesus' last words in Matthew are: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Don't see a dichotomy (commands VS. freedom) where there isn't one. Jesus' commands ARE freeing; they provide the only true freedom there is.
Paul was speaking to Christians in Galatia concerning rule-keeping. That is the whole point. Listen to the previous verse below...........
Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."
If I am dead, who is really being obedient?
Consider Romans 6:17&18 - "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Yes,it is indeed all about HIS obedience, and it is the ONLY obedience we need to be concerned with.
It is really a matter of discerning what the so-called "obedience" scriptures are really expressing.
Do you believe you can please the Lord or somehow better your "standing" through your actions or by being obedient?
Blessings, tripp
Tripp: short answer is yes, I think that my obedience pleases God. To be clear, obedience happens when I choose to follow Him because He has freed me to do so through His blood and through our relationship. It pleases my Father when I do what He's asked me to do.
This is not complicated. :) Are we saved by what we do, earning our salvation by being "good"? Emaphatically, NO. But after being regenerated by the blood of Jeus, can we please God (gladden his Father's heart) through doing what He commands? Of course!
Why do you resist the idea of pleasing Him when the Scriptures contain many references to it?
Do you think people have no agency of their own, and everything we are is just positional? How does that avoid being gnostic (separation of body and soul, or rather, you can do anything and your spirit is saved)?
Do the New Testament scriptures really contain many references concerning "pleasing" the Lord, or is it a religious notion.
It is my contention, that we only relate,connect...please God, by the In-Christed "Life," Becoming Who We Already Are.
Christ did it all! It is a matter of "Being." We will never "Do" to "Be."
How could I be "gnostic" and proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior? Remember,John called the Gnostic belief an anti-Christ teaching. In addition to this teaching, Gnostics also believed and taught that they did not have or share a part in the sin of Adam. Gnostics did not believe that they were sinners. Not believing themselves sinful they did not believe that Jesus came to pay the penalty of mans’ sin by His death on the cross, much less theirs. They believed that Jesus was the way-shower, but not the way.
Since you brought up Gnosticism? Can "Christians" Sin?
Tripp, you asked, "Do the New Testament scriptures really contain many references concerning 'pleasing' the Lord, or is it a religious notion."
Did you read the post we are discussing? I put several references there. There were more references to "pleasing God" in the NT--contextually dealing with seeking to please Him by how we live our lives--than I could post. So yes, the NT mentions it. A lot.
Regarding "can Christians sin?" Yes, they can. I quoted 1 John 1:8 in my post--as Christians growing in the Lord, of course we still stumble! v.9 goes on to tell us that WHEN we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I love that one--need it all the time).
In order to make the New Testament not command Christians to live holy lives, you're going to have to rewrite it, twist it, or leave stuff out. It is a mistake to take the idea of imputed righteousness and take it to mean that it doesn't matter how you live.
Stick with me here. In Romans 11:17-23 Paul is talking to Gentiles about the Jews:
"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."
Consider the kindness and sternness of God. It is imperative that we obey the Lord, that we continue in His kindness.
John 15:5-10
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."
If you are willing, do a word study on 'continue,' on 'pleasing,' on 'obey.' You will probably be surprised.
I will be brief, as I believe we are speaking two different languages.
Rom. 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
Rom. 4:15 "because the law brings about wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression."
Rom. 6:14 " For sin shall not have domion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."
Rom. 7:6 " But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."
I am here to declare that Christians do not sin, it is impossible, as far as God is concerned. Only the Law tells you; you are a sinner. You are either under Law or Grace,not both.
[Hear me, I am not condoning poor behavior, I am emphatically stating, it will never get better by trying....(Do's and don'ts).]
Rom 6:11 "From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That's what Jesus did." (msg)
I could respond to every scripture you have quoted. However,I believe at this time it would be counter productive. If you will ever consider a change of position, I would love to hear about it. For now........
Grace to you, tripp
If you think Christians cannot sin, yes, we are speaking two different languages. :(
God bless you, dear Tripp. Thanks for the conversation, seriously. I enjoyed it.
Hey, Tripp,
One can believe that we are "raised up and seated in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus" as a RIGHT NOW reality, and yet still equally co-exist on this fallen world, in a fallen mortal body (that will always long for selfishness and sin), and have to fight for obedience.
That's the schizophrenic reality of Christian existance. We walk in two worlds at once. Sure, the Kingdom is our first order, but NT Scripture clearly teaches that we very much have our linear existance in the earth, and very much still must deal with the fallen nature that our first birth gave us. It's not denying the Heavenly Reality to say so--either that, or Paul, Peter, and the others all denied it.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will obey My commandments." No, He's not talking about rule-keeping as the Jews knew it to be, but at the same time He did clearly give us commandments and shared with us (throughout the NT) His will for our lives.
There is a difference between rule-keeping IN ORDER TO EARN the love of God, and holding to God's desire for our lives (being fruitful in good works, etc,) because we simply love to express Him.
It's His Life in us that enables us to express Him, after all. That's why He put His Life in us--that's God's grace. The law was the required expression of God WITHOUT the inward ability to do it--that's why He gave the law (so that we would see it was impossible, that something was inherantly wrong with us).
The Christian life is about an Exchanged Life--His Life is put in us, and now we have the ABILITY to express Him. It's not a forced expression, but a desired expression--like that of a wife to a husband, WANTING to please Him, WANTING to choose His ways, WANTING to properly express the Head.
And so if we have someone calling themselves a Christian, yet not wanting to express the Lord through their own lives, I think it's safe to say that something somewhere is wrong. When someone willfully chooses to disobey, Jesus defined that as "not loving" Him. ("IF you love Me, you will obey...")
Love and obedience are tied together, as Kristin said. Unless you want to cut out certain portions of Scripture, that is, and some people do.
Warm Regards,
Molly
http://threepennies.blogdrive.com/
Molly,
Below,please ponder a few thoughts from a different perspective by Jim Minker. http://theshovel.net/
<<< Can a believer sin (miss) anymore? If so... >>>
There is a perspective that demands that to think otherwise is ludicrous. This is the viewpoint that is based upon the examination and judgment of sin, and it is called law. The law convinces us that even though we are supposedly "saved" from sin through Christ we are still sinners who are subject to the law of sin. It's only reasonable, isn't it? After all, why would we ever think that just because we believe in Christ we would not still have to deal with sin? Unless, of course, we really did share in Christ's death and also have been raised to new life in him.
"I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." (Romans 14:14)
This always used to stump me because I would always do the "Yeah, but..." You know, as in KNOWING that Paul obviously wasn't referring to those things that ARE unclean in themselves! Haha! So, how could it be that Paul could have ever been "CONVINCED in the Lord Jesus that NOTHING is unclean in itself"? What about all the evil stuff in the world? And yet the only exception he made had to do with the PERCEPTION of the one who regards something as unclean: "...to HIM it is unclean."
<<< Can a believer sin (miss) anymore? If so... >>>
He who regards himself as a sinner, to HIMSELF he IS a sinner.
"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God." (Galatians 2:17-19)
This rather potent statement of Paul's to the saints in Galatia describes through different wording what he also addressed in Romans 6-8, especially chapter 7. "Seeking to be justified in Christ" was one of Paul's summations of the "other gospel, which is really not another" to which the Galatian believers were giving ear. "Seeking to be justified in Christ" is nothing other than a "Christianized" version of living by law, and this is what happens when we give heed to "another gospel".
Simply stated, if the life to which Christ has called us is in fact based upon a seeking of acceptance in Christ so that our continued following Him - whatever one believes this to be - only proves how unacceptable we are, then Christ would be nothing but a dealer or an enforcer of sin. But then, that is totally absurd since Christ is the one who did away with sin. If I rebuild another "gospel" that re-establishes a relationship with God through some form of legality, then I am the one proving myself to be a law-breaker, or sinner.
Notice how Paul continued his point: "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God." Exact same thing he told the Roman believers, for through death we were made alive to God. Now, why would I try to re-establish the thing that can only bring knowledge of sin when that thing is what killed me so that I could be delivered from it?
<<< Can a believer sin (miss) anymore? If so... >>>
I can't disagree with someone else's affirmation, because to them it IS the only truth that makes sense, and it can be verified by a written code and the violations thereof -- only it's ANOTHER gospel. After all, if one's answer is "yes" it must be found in the law of sin and death. However, the good news of Christ declares the removal of all that offends, so that there is nothing to miss in Christ!!
Well...
I actually don't believe that we are sinners. I think the "I'm just a poor sinner saved by grace" mentality belongs in the manure pile with a lot of other popular-but-unScriptural concepts.
However, there is a difference between BEING a sinner, and committing a sin. A Christian is a SAINT, so he cannot BE a sinner, however he can DO a sin, if that makes sense. To say he can't DO something sinful is ludicrous. Even John said that if any man says he does not sin, he is a liar and the Truth is not in him.
So I'm not arguing that we're not in Christ. I happen to live there myself, very thankfully. But there's more than just being in Christ, Tripp. There's also Him being IN US.
Which means, as Scripture shares, He is intended to be expressed THROUGH us.
Which...requires our obedience to Him.
We can choose--submit to the Life of Christ in us and express HIM to the world, OR we can choose to submit to our fallen inward nature (that longs to express self).
No one has been saying that one must obey God in order to earn salvation, or to earn His love. However the Scripture makes it quite clear that God is pleased with the expression of His Son on the earth. And that is exactly what the Bride is called to do--to make manifest her Head (Eph.).
It's not a salvation issue, nor is it a rule-keeping issue. It's a "express the Nature of Christ through our mortal bodies" issue. :o)
Now, are you opposed to the concept of the Church expressing Christ in the earth? Are you saying that we do not need to actively choose to obey His Life in us? I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, honestly.
(PS--You don't, purchance, know or work with JW Luman in Arkansas, do you?)
Warm Regards,
Molly
http://threepennies.blogdrive.com
We are definitely talking about two different gospels, Tripp.
But I don't agree that mine is 'of sin and death.'
Earlier, you seemed unaware of what the Scriptures say (regarding pleasing God, specifically). I urge you, if you have not, to read the whole Bible and try to reconcile the things you've written here with it. It doesn't work. God doesn't change.
You also write as though someone here has advocated going back to keeping Torah, which is what Paul wrote the Galatians about (that IS the Law). There is a ton of difference between what the Judaizers were doing and what proponents of holy, New-Testament-based living are doing!
Can you see that following Jesus' own commands for His followers is NOT the same as advocating that we live by Torah? Do you think that somehow you are different from the disciples whom Jesus commanded, "Follow Me" and "If you love me, you will obey my commands"? Why disregard so much scripture?
Kristen and Molly,
This is my last response.
I thank you both for your concerns and willingness to teach. Yes Kristen,I have read the entire Bible and I am aware of all the scriptures you have mentioned. I am Bible trained and it took me a long time to understand the things I am attempting to convey here. You see, it is not a pursuit of knowledge but a pursuit of Him. Most Christians today, still have a view toward the dead,mixing Law with Grace. I offer the below for your consideration:
Rom 7:4-11 "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me."
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
2Co 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
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It is interesting how we Christians continue to hold up a Standard/Measuring stick(Law)other than the Standard/Law of Jesus Christ. For we have bought into this mentality, that apart from a governing standard, rule, work,(fear) etc.....we will quickly fall away into carnality. I am here to announce to each of you, that if you do Raise up a Standard, other than the Standard/Law of Christ, you will surely fail. Let me try to explain!
Below, I am going to list some of the things that the "Law" was purposed by God to accomplish.
[Hear me once again, I am not condoning poor behavior, I am emphatically stating, it will never get better by trying....(Do's and don'ts).]
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Purpose of the Law
1. Sinful passions aroused by the Law
2. Come to know sin through the Law.
3. Increases sin, (But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind), The Law came in so that the transgression would increase.
4. The Law ultimately brings Death. (But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound (the Law).... for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
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My friend Dan Stone put it this way, "Do you realize that Law and Grace can never flow together. You can never marry the two. Paul challenged the Galatians saying, You have to make a choice, Galatians. Are you going to live under law, or under grace? Paul wasn't saying that if they stepped back into the law, they wouldn't be saved anymore. But he was telling them, "If you go back to the law, you're giving up the way of grace. Now, let me tell you something about the way of the law, Galatians: you have to keep it all."
They couldn't just pick out the law they wanted to keep. That's what I used to do. I'd pick out those parts of Mosaic Law, Sermon on the Mount law, Baptist law, my personal law, and whatever other law I thought I could keep at least some of the time. I didn't see that law and grace are mortal enemies. I didn't see that you can't live under both.
It made sense to me to be religious. It made sense to be an external Christian, trying to keep an external set of rules. I couldn't do anything else, because I had always been an external person. So were you. We all grew up as external people, defining ourselves in relation to other persons, things, and events that told us who we were. That's why as new Christians we were so prone to asking external questions: "What should I do?"
There's no life in the law. The only thing the law tells you is what you ought to do, but can't do. It will never relinquish its demand that you ought to do it, because it's a divine ought-to; God gave it to Moses. We'll keep ourselves under that divine ought-to, and the condemnation and death ministers (2 Corinthians 3), until we learn to live from the Person who dwells within us. Because there's nothing in our flesh that wants to say, "I can't do it. I can't keep the law through my own effort." Everything in our flesh says, "I want to try to do it, and with God's help maybe I can do it."
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Do you realize that every time you begin to place yourself back under a Standard/Law, the entire "law" process begins again. Sin is aroused, made Known, Increased, Embellished, and Ultimately brings Death. Now, if you are a believer, you have embraced a mere illusion perpetrated by the devil, and this is not God's reality because you are dead to sin, and alive to Jesus Christ. Whenever you begin to seemingly fall away or live carnally, you have placed yourself back under the law with a view toward the dead..... the law does what it was designed to do. But, God has said that you are no longer under the Law but under Grace, Rom 6:14. And sin cannot be imputed to your account, when there is no law, Rom 5:13.
Stop living in the devil's fantasy land and begin embracing the Reality of Jesus Christ." ....it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Rom 8: 1-2.
Consider this, If you ever feel condemned by yourself or another, I am here to declare it is not from the Lord but from the devil.
It is my prayer that the church will begin to embrace the Reality of who God says we are versus the illusion the devil wants each of us to succumb to. The only way to live the Victorious/Supernatural "Life" is by another, Jesus Christ.
It’s really a matter of becoming who we ALREADY ARE in Spirit, in Christ... bringing that finished work to manifestation in our individual and corporate Life. Let us press on to the ‘mark’ of manifesting the Life of Christ in the world, “because as He IS, so are WE in this world.” (1 John 4:17)
Tripp said, "I am here to announce to each of you, that if you do Raise up a Standard, other than the Standard/Law of Christ, you will surely fail."
Ummmm...I think we agree. Did you read the previous posts at all?
The whole point, Tripp, is that we aren't under the law, but under Christ.
Now we no longer serve under a task-master we can never satisfy (Rom.7, earlier part of chapter), but have been killed (via the Cross of Christ-Gal.2:20) and raised up into a NEW Creation (2 Corl5:17), one that in in Christ (Eph.1) and has His nature within--we are "married" to Him, "one" with Him (Eph.5).
Now, AT LAST, we have the ability to express Yahweh in the earth...all because the Son dwells within us and can therefore express His Life through us.
So...I think all Kristin was trying to point out was simply the fact that a Christian who thinks it's just about "going to heaven" is really missing it. We are here on earth to express Jesus Christ, not just to sit on a pew and wait around till heaven comes.
She's not putting anyone back under the Law. She was just pointing out the silliness of those who say they have faith but have no works.
The parable of the sheep and the goats goes into this well enough--it's not enough to believe "Jesus was raised from the dead,"--Satan believes that, but that doesn't get him into heaven, now does it?
James said the very same thing. Faith gives birth to works--works born of a Heavenly Seed, however, not of a flesh-motivated one.
The Christian does not just believe that Jesus is alive--no, it's far better than that. The Christian is bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh--he has been united to The Son in a way that is scarcely comprehendable. And the obvious result will be the same as the vine and the branch--fruit will be born from such a union.
So...are you actually reading what is being said, or are you jumping to conclusions about what we believe, assuming that everyone outside of your particular group is theologically errant? ...Or am I just banging my head on a wall, here? *grin*
Blessings in the Beloved, whether we ever get anywhere or not...
Molly
http://threepennies.blogdrive.com
Yes Molly,
I believe we agree in many areas.....I like what Jim Minker had to say about "Sheep and Goats:"
""Goats" are those whose nature is found in the fallen Adam, though they claim to not be too far gone. They are under the false belief that they can and do produce "righteousness" and are quick to make it known in whatever way they can. When they "perform" their deeds they want their due credit. They don't want their true nature and/or deeds revealed for what they are, but instead they want their deeds to appear "righteous".
"Sheep" are those who are born of God, and will readily admit to having come from the fallen Adam. Christ is their life. They are not aware of the work of God in them for the most part and instead become more and more aware of the fact that they cannot produce righteousness ... and often say so. Christ is their boast, not themselves."
Grace to you, tripp
Kristen and Molly, you made your points loud and clear. Tripp, I'm curious why you are spending such a large amount of time splitting hairs on this. Did you come from a very legalistic background? I find people who have are often afraid to even admit that their works are of any value to God. As has been said, our works DO NOT SAVE US, but we are, positionally , no longer "sinners", but "saints", as Paul refers to true believers in Christ. Yet this very Paul said TO THE SAINTS:
Philippians 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.This command seems somewhat oxymoronic. God IS working in us to will and to act, yet we are admonished to do some working as well.
I do not see either Kristen or Molly saying we must work to EARN salvation. But our works after we are POSITIONALLY placed in God's kingdom by faith in Christ's work on the cross now put us in the position to earn heavenly rewards. Paul spoke of our works AS BELIEVERS as being of different qualities. Listen to what he's saying here:
1 Corinthians 3
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.So see, our works do have value. What we do (our works) WILL be judged, but not on the basis of deciding our salvation, but to determine our rewards in heaven. But the Lord even promises rewards on earth. Check out the results from a New Testament search on the word "reward".
What both Kristen and Molly are doing right here on Kristen's blog will earn them heavenly and maybe even earthly rewards because they are seeking to bring the truth to light here. But they began by building upon the foundation of Christ first.
Is it any clearer now? I can't imagine it being any clearer, honestly.
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